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madhatter
Four Star Member
Joined : 13 Feb 2008
Posts : 221
Location : Tallahassee, FL
 |  Subject: Re: History of Religion(s)  Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:26 pm | |
| Ah...good advice, Shelagh.
I can, however, totally spy on, eavesdrop upon, lie about, follow, mimic, abuse, belittle, or ridicule the characters I create.
Hm... 
Has to be some deep, deep connection and meaning here...
shrugs
_________________
Southern fiction with a madhatter twist...
www.rhettdevane.com |
|   | | Pam
Five Star Member
Age : 42
Joined : 02 Feb 2008
Posts : 1220
Location : Nova Scotia, Canada
| | Subject: Re: History of Religion(s) Sun Apr 13, 2008 11:31 pm | |
| | Shelagh wrote: | Try to think of the converse. Without any organised religion in the world EVER, would there be no wars and no conflict? Relgions unite people but they also divide. Why is that?
Also, if religions are basically the same, why are there so many? Doesn't that suggest that religions are man-made and not devised by God? Humans all think basically the same and this is reflected in the similarity of religions. If God devised numerous religions, they would be different and devised for different purposes. God wouldn't devise the same religion over and over again; there would be no need to do that.
We adopt the beliefs that suit us. We are not chosen by God, we are not "the chosen people". We do the choosing.
|
I think it does mean that religions are man made; even looking at the way the Church of England was formed when I think it was Henry VIII did not like the rules of the Catholic Church. And in the US where groups of loosely organized individuals can lobby for government support and receive recogntion as a religion when they really aren't in any traditional sense of the word but now qualify for special treatment as a recognized church (scientology for example). I think religion is people's way of organizaing themselves, just as tribes and states and countries have done for millenia. Jesus never called himself a Christian, he was Jewish. It was people after him who - dare I say - invented Christianity. We do choose these days in much of the 'free world', although at one time ascribed to the religion of the toughest guy in the neighbourhood (thinking of examples like the Crusades as well as the way that North American natives were 'converted').
It is so interesting that you mention your brothers Shelagh. My parents have had an experience that left me, well, stunned. My Dad an atheist my whole life and my Mum a "good non-practicing Anglican" we loved to say. When they were both diagnosed with cancer within a month of each other a few years ago, my Mum headed almost straight back to church and made Dad come with her. He has become more introspective and searching for meaning, even hosting bible study at their home. Throughout, they have grown much closer as a couple - more than ever before - and they support one another, pray together and each journey through their disease, but do so together. Faith, for both of them, has had a profound effect on their relationship and the way that they deal with their illnesses.
Life truly is a remarkable journey. 
_________________
Pam Robertson 
http://andthebandplayedonmylawn.blogspot.com |
| | | | Phil Whitley
Four Star Member
Age : 65
Joined : 01 Apr 2008
Posts : 308
Location : Riverdale, GA
| | Subject: Re: History of Religion(s) Mon Apr 14, 2008 3:48 am | |
| I now think of myself as a spiritual person rather than a religious one. It took me the better part of my lifetime to de-program myself from the "brainwashing" imposed on me as a child. Raised in the "Bible Belt" South, my family, the church and the community instilled in us a fear of hellfire and damnation (out of love and concern for my immortal soul), that I now find abominable.
When I began seriously studying ancient texts, as a result of discovering the works of Zecharia Sitchin (The Earth Chronicles) in 1997, I found that the Sumerians and Babylonians had recorded most of the popular Bible stories a few thousand years before the Bible was ever written!
The Babylonian's Enuma Elish (google it) is an epic of creation, told as an historical narrative from an astronomical viewpoint.
Then there the accounts of an alien race that came to Earth from another extrasolar planet who genetically altered homo erectus into a more suitable creature for their purposes. I know this sounds wild, and bordering on science fiction, but read on...
They called their creation "the Adamu".
The place they chose to do their work was called "E-Din", and was located in Mesopotamia.
In their version, our Noah was called Ziasudra, but the Flood and the resulting survival was nearly the same as the Bible story.
There is lots more, I just offer these examples to emphacize what led me to "getting over" my doubts which were going to send me to hell anyway... LOL
Rather than destroy my belief in a Supreme Being, a Creator, it actually gave me a foundation for my beliefs and restored my faith in a Higher Power. These visitors, the Anunnaki (as referred to by the Sumerians), had a strong belief in a higher power whom the called "The Creator of All". They eveb had arguments among themselves whether their genetic manipulations had interfered with the Master Plan, even to the point of whether it was Fate or Destiny that they had done.
Before they left Earth, they bestowed "Kingship" upon the humans so they could rule themselves. It was these priest-kings that began what we now know as religion. They set themselves up as the intercessors to the "gods" and the masses, for their own gain.
Thus began "religion".
Just my opinion...
_________________
Brew
My website:http://www.philwhitley.com
"Let us dare to read, think, speak and write." ~ John Adams, 1765 |
| | | | Abe F. March
Five Star Member
Age : 69
Joined : 26 Jan 2008
Posts : 1077
Location : Germany
| | Subject: Re: History of Religion(s) Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:15 am | |
| Brew, and the rest of you on this thread, I think you may find, "A Higher Good," by Ron Kruger most interesting. Ron posts on the Published Authors Network but I haven't seen him on this forum, but he has much to say about this subject.
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"To Beirut and Back"
http://www.freewebs.com/abemarch |
| | | | Pam
Five Star Member
Age : 42
Joined : 02 Feb 2008
Posts : 1220
Location : Nova Scotia, Canada
| | Subject: Re: History of Religion(s) Mon Apr 14, 2008 12:18 pm | |
| It`s fascinating to me that there are different versions of creation myth in many cultures, as you point out Brew. It is similar with fairy tales that kids read too. I beleive that there are something like 200 versions of Red Riding Hood--everyone needed a story to teach kids how dangerous it was to speak to strangers, stray from the path...and our kids grow up thinking it was created just for them.
_________________
Pam Robertson
http://andthebandplayedonmylawn.blogspot.com |
| | | | P. Gordon Kennedy
Four Star Member
Age : 20
Joined : 13 Jan 2008
Posts : 483
Location : Crystal Falls, Michigan
| | Subject: Re: History of Religion(s) Mon Apr 14, 2008 5:07 pm | |
| | Pam wrote: | | Shelagh wrote: | Try to think of the converse. Without any organised religion in the world EVER, would there be no wars and no conflict? Relgions unite people but they also divide. Why is that?
Also, if religions are basically the same, why are there so many? Doesn't that suggest that religions are man-made and not devised by God? Humans all think basically the same and this is reflected in the similarity of religions. If God devised numerous religions, they would be different and devised for different purposes. God wouldn't devise the same religion over and over again; there would be no need to do that.
We adopt the beliefs that suit us. We are not chosen by God, we are not "the chosen people". We do the choosing.
|
I think it does mean that religions are man made; even looking at the way the Church of England was formed when I think it was Henry VIII did not like the rules of the Catholic Church. And in the US where groups of loosely organized individuals can lobby for government support and receive recogntion as a religion when they really aren't in any traditional sense of the word but now qualify for special treatment as a recognized church (scientology for example). I think religion is people's way of organizaing themselves, just as tribes and states and countries have done for millenia. Jesus never called himself a Christian, he was Jewish. It was people after him who - dare I say - invented Christianity. We do choose these days in much of the 'free world', although at one time ascribed to the religion of the toughest guy in the neighbourhood (thinking of examples like the Crusades as well as the way that North American natives were 'converted').
It is so interesting that you mention your brothers Shelagh. My parents have had an experience that left me, well, stunned. My Dad an atheist my whole life and my Mum a "good non-practicing Anglican" we loved to say. When they were both diagnosed with cancer within a month of each other a few years ago, my Mum headed almost straight back to church and made Dad come with her. He has become more introspective and searching for meaning, even hosting bible study at their home. Throughout, they have grown much closer as a couple - more than ever before - and they support one another, pray together and each journey through their disease, but do so together. Faith, for both of them, has had a profound effect on their relationship and the way that they deal with their illnesses.
Life truly is a remarkable journey. |
King Henry VIII "invented" the Church of England so he could get a devorce from Catherine of Aragon (the pope refused to grant such a devorce). The reason king Henry VIII wanted the devorce is Catherine would not have a boy baby. After creating his new church, king Henry granted himself a devorce and married Anne Bolyn and after she failed to produce a boy, he had her head cut off. Getting back to the subject of inventing religions, is seems, as you have said, that Christianity was invented not by Jesus, but by those that followed him. In particualar, I think Christianity was largely invented by Saint Paul of Tarsis. More than half of the New Testament was written by him. Christian fundamentalists today seem to emphasize Paul's teachings even more than those of Jesus. Prehaps, that is because Jesus told people to be non-judgemental, and anyone who has heard even a minute of a fundamentalist sermon will know that these people seem to think about nothing, except judgement and eternal damnation. Now, back to the writings of Saint Paul of Tarsis. If one reads those writings critically, the first thing one should notice is that Saint Paul appears to be a sexist. He teaches that men should have complete dominion over women (which no logical person should view as right). It also seems to me that Saint Paul thought he could invent his own rules just like king Henry VIII invented the Church of England. If I remember correctly, Saint Paul is also the one who taught that we are saved by faith alone (so appearently it matters more that we believe than what we do). Personally, I disagree whth that. I believe actions speak louder than words. I would say faith without good deeds is worthless. As you can tell, I am not a fan of Saint Paul of Tarsis.
Last edited by P. Gordon Kennedy on Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:51 am; edited 1 time in total |
| | | | minissa
Joined : 16 Jan 2008
Posts : 5
Location : Utah, USA
| | Subject: Re: History of Religion(s) Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:26 pm | |
| My background: raised Roman Catholic but in a somewhat diverse neighborhood. I (horrors!) went to public school, for which some of the Catholic kids who went to St. Richard's assured me I was going to burn in Hell. My husband, raised Baptist, still kids me if I can't do the book, chapter, and verse thing on something that, "Oh, you were raised Catholic." (With respect to any of you who might be Catholic, when I was a child the Baltimore Catechism was what was drilled into you, and you had a Mass Book, but the Bible? What's that?
My spiritual path was similar to what others here are describing --- yup, studied almost everything there was to study and saw the commonalities. Needed something, but couldn't decide, as at heart, all the major world religions were teaching the same principles: one God, be nice to one another, follow some laws God wants you to, put your focus less on the material and more on the spiritual. My husband (similar path, though his Born Again folks really are terrified we'll go to Hell for following a false prophet) and I followed the path to what seemed like the logical conclusion at the time: the Baha'i Faith, which explains why, yes, all the major religions really do pretty much teach the same values *if* you look at what their founders taught. So glad to read that Abe at least has gotten through the Qur'an. Does it say anything about flying planes into buildings or suicide bombing little kids? Nope. But did it say in what little we know of Christ's words that we should slaughter people, Christians or otherwise, who didn't agree with us? Nope. (Slaughter of Christians by other Christians began around the time the church councils started and the patriarchs started trying to solidify and codify what Christians were actually supposed to believe theologically.)
I would like to take diplomatic issue with the thought that religion is born of man, though I would agree that what religion *becomes* is a function of man fiddling with it. I think religion starts out as a pure stream; given enough time, man will pollute it. *That's* why we have wars. (Baha'is would say that's why religion needs to be renewed periodically, so we can get back to the pure font and get past all the crud man has polluted it with.) In our texts, it says "If it [religion] be the cause of discord and hostility, if it leads to separation and creates conflict, the absence of religion would be preferable in the world... Prejudice and fanaticism, whether sectarian, denominational, patriotic or political are destructive to the foundation of human solidarity; therefore man should release himself from such bonds in order that the oneness of the world of humanity may become manifest."
We think science and religion should agree, that there should be universal literacy/education, that men and women are equal, and a bunch of other radical new ideas! As a science jock, feminist, little peace-loving hippie chick (someday I shall paraphrase Joni Mitchell and write a song called "Songs to Aging Hippies Come"), and educator, how could I resist?!
Hope that didn't come off as proselytizing. That wasn't my intent. Just to share my background and offer another point of view on the "where did religion come from/does it give us wars" discussion.
Karen
www.chaliceoflife.com |
| | | | minissa
Joined : 16 Jan 2008
Posts : 5
Location : Utah, USA
| | Subject: Re: History of Religion(s) Mon Apr 14, 2008 11:35 pm | |
| Just posting to see if my avatar and address saved. THIS IS ONLY A TEST.
Karen |
| | | | Abe F. March
Five Star Member
Age : 69
Joined : 26 Jan 2008
Posts : 1077
Location : Germany
| | Subject: Re: History of Religion(s) Tue Apr 15, 2008 6:43 am | |
| Your study is impressive minissa.
I found that the more I learned about the history of religion, the less religious I became. We know that Jesus never wrote anything down. What is recorded about what he is alledged to have said was disseminated mouth to mouth until someone wrote down their understanding of the stories. That is true of the other prophets as well. Each time the early scripts were copied or translated, the meaning was subject to change. Much of what was finally selected to be placed into the bible underwent much disucssion to make sure what was included was in accordance to what their beliefs were at that time.
Anyone who has studies languages knows that not every word can be translated and have the same meaning. So when one considers translations from Aramaic, Greek and finally English, the current meaning is also suspect.
As an aside: When I lived in Atlanta, there was a live broadcast over the controversy about having Spanish in school. They asked a lady on the spot what her feeling were about having Spanish in school. She replied, "If English was good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for everyone else."
I think we recognize that fundamentalists try to follow what is written in the bible "word for word." Most are good people who want to believe in God and in what the bible says. To shatter their illusions for some would be catastrophic. I think our beliefs should remain "our" beliefs and not try to destroy the faith simple people have that governs their lives. But it stops there. When it becomes political is when I speak out.
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"To Beirut and Back"
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| | | | Pam
Five Star Member
Age : 42
Joined : 02 Feb 2008
Posts : 1220
Location : Nova Scotia, Canada
| | Subject: Re: History of Religion(s) Tue Apr 15, 2008 12:48 pm | |
| | Abe F. March wrote: | She replied, "If English was good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for everyone else."
|
That made me burst out laughing and startled the dog, who is now a quaking mess at my feet, Abe. It also reminded me how vain we can be, to consider ourselves the centre of the freakin' univierse.
Interesting and fascinating conversation folks.
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Pam Robertson
http://andthebandplayedonmylawn.blogspot.com |
| | | | Shelagh
Admin
Joined : 11 Jan 2008
Posts : 1799
Location : UK
| | Subject: Re: History of Religion(s) Tue Apr 15, 2008 1:20 pm | |
| It made me laugh, too, Pam. A few years ago, on the PA message boards, someone added the Beatles to a list of famous American musicians!
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Shelagh Watkins
http://shelaghwatkins.co.uk/ |
| | | | Pam
Five Star Member
Age : 42
Joined : 02 Feb 2008
Posts : 1220
Location : Nova Scotia, Canada
| | | | | P. Gordon Kennedy
Four Star Member
Age : 20
Joined : 13 Jan 2008
Posts : 483
Location : Crystal Falls, Michigan
| | Subject: Re: History of Religion(s) Wed Apr 16, 2008 12:26 am | |
| | Abe F. March wrote: | Your study is impressive minissa.
I found that the more I learned about the history of religion, the less religious I became. We know that Jesus never wrote anything down. What is recorded about what he is alledged to have said was disseminated mouth to mouth until someone wrote down their understanding of the stories. That is true of the other prophets as well. Each time the early scripts were copied or translated, the meaning was subject to change. Much of what was finally selected to be placed into the bible underwent much disucssion to make sure what was included was in accordance to what their beliefs were at that time.
Anyone who has studies languages knows that not every word can be translated and have the same meaning. So when one considers translations from Aramaic, Greek and finally English, the current meaning is also suspect.
As an aside: When I lived in Atlanta, there was a live broadcast over the controversy about having Spanish in school. They asked a lady on the spot what her feeling were about having Spanish in school. She replied, "If English was good enough for Jesus, it should be good enough for everyone else."
I think we recognize that fundamentalists try to follow what is written in the bible "word for word." Most are good people who want to believe in God and in what the bible says. To shatter their illusions for some would be catastrophic. I think our beliefs should remain "our" beliefs and not try to destroy the faith simple people have that governs their lives. But it stops there. When it becomes political is when I speak out. |
Good points, the gospels were first written 30-50 years after Jesus died and those who wrote them might not have even been alive when Jesus taught. The stories were passed down via word of mouth until they were recorded decades later. Word of mouth, however, is notoriously unrelible as the children's game of telephone will demonstrate. Also the bible has been written and re-written again and again throughout the ages. I find it highly plausible that a great deal of the bible's original meaning was lost in translation and some may have even been changed by powerful people wishing to forward their own adjendas. Another thing one will notice by looking at the bible with a critical eye is that it seems to cortradict itself. Particularly noticible is the conflict between the old and new Testaments. The god of the Old Testament is an angery god whereas the god of the New Teatament is not. It seems to me that Christian fundamentalists tend to believe in the angery vengful god of the Old Testament. |
| | | | Abe F. March
Five Star Member
Age : 69
Joined : 26 Jan 2008
Posts : 1077
Location : Germany
| | Subject: Re: History of Religion(s) Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:03 am | |
| Good points Gordon.
Yes, the old testament does have lots of anger as well as sex. Young people whose only reading material was the bible used to read those juicy portions in secret. I'm surprised that the old testament hasn't been placed on a banned reading list.
The New Testament has to do with Christ and christianity whereas the old testament with Judaism. As you know, the jews don't forgive or forget. Christ taught to love and to forgive - turn the other cheek.
As a child growing up with forced bible reading and church, I was always confused about the two Gods people prayed to. Jesus was prayed to as "God" and then there was just plain "God" that was referenced. That alone makes for an interesting discussion where a human is revered as God - the son of God becomes God. As far as scripture is concerned, we are all sons/daughters of God. That being the case, I may start signing what I write as "God."  
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| | | | Shelagh
Admin
Joined : 11 Jan 2008
Posts : 1799
Location : UK
| | Subject: Re: History of Religion(s) Wed Apr 16, 2008 3:20 pm | |
| I wouldn't recommend that Abe. You would receive lots of begging letters!
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Shelagh Watkins
http://shelaghwatkins.co.uk/ |
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