1st and 3rd Person

Subject: Re: 1st and 3rd Person Tue May 27, 2008 1:03 am

That settled, the next question would be, Why would they want people to hunt up words other than adverbs?
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Subject: Re: 1st and 3rd Person Tue May 27, 2008 1:17 am

"Kill your darlings," was Stephen King's advice in On Writing.

I think the message is that old adage, 'show, don't tell'. Show
emotions (anger, sadness, joy, etc.) by the character's actions, rather
than using the adverbs angrily, sadly, joyfully, etc-fully.
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Subject: Re: 1st and 3rd Person Tue May 27, 2008 6:00 am

Okay, now I am going to have to get the book back from the library because I am totally confused as to what Steven King was saying.

Thank you, Everyone, for your input. Sorry I put you all to so much trouble. Once I find out where I went wrong and understand what King was trying to say, I'll let you know.

Thanks again!
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Subject: Re: 1st and 3rd Person Tue May 27, 2008 7:21 am

I think King means that instead of using sentences with adverbs you should use sentences in which somebody gets chased around a cemetery and has their face chewed off.
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Subject: Re: 1st and 3rd Person Tue May 27, 2008 4:05 pm

I have a suggestion: as no one other than Stephen King is Stephen King, do not assume that what works for him will work for you. Read his book, read Lawrence's Block's "Telling Lies For Fun and Profit," but use them only as a means of comparing ideas and styles. Your own style will develop over time. Both Dashiell Hammett and Agatha Christie were leading writers of the 1920s and '30s. Had Hammett tried to write like Christie or had Christie tried to write like Hammett, neither would have succeeded. Read them, read everything you can lay hands on, and from that your own style will emerge. Forget omitting adverbs and all other concrete ideas concerning style unless it turns out they work for you.

As for Sue's example; "Do not go there." At first glance it is obvious the speaker is using great force or he would have said, "Don't go there." Among other things, "do not" could mean the speaker is warning a child not to go near the swamp, telling someone he does not wish to discuss his wife's infidelity or making sure someone unaccustomed to violent death does not open a door that would reveal a bloody scene.
Brew's use of italics for "not" is excellent.
If the speaker must be identified, doing so through action avoids such things as the dreadful "he stated." In the case of infidelity it could work by writing:
Jack slammed his fist against the desk. "Do not go there!"
For the bloody scene:
Jack returned to the room, shutting the door behind him. "Do not go there!"
Fof the kid:
Jack shook his forefinger at his son. "Do not go there!"

There is no adequate substitute for "said." Occasionally a word such as "warned" may be OK, but never stray far from "said." In lengthy conversations it should rarely be necessary to use anything if only two people are talking. Their style of speaking plus what they say should provide all the identification needed.

Just thoughts as to how I would handle it. You are not me so it may not work for you. No two people write in the same way unless one is a clone.
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Subject: Re: 1st and 3rd Person Tue May 27, 2008 4:51 pm

Dick,
I don't know if my remarks are in the proper order based on your comments, but they are:
Yep,
Yep,
Hmmm,
Yep,
Hmmm,
Yep,
Damm. (That references your last remark about cloning.)
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Subject: Re: 1st and 3rd Person Tue May 27, 2008 5:16 pm

If Abe agrees with four out of seven I must have done something right. I write mysteries and noir so people who work in other fields may not like my style. Whenever possible I like to have the conversation flow with little interruption so the story moves quickly. Take, for example, this excerpt from a 1940s bit of noir I sold recently:

Aside from a waitress with a chip on her shoulder and a clapped-out short order cook there was only one other person in the place. I had taken a few sips of coffee strong enough to bring an elephant to its knees when the other customer whistled between his teeth. I turned to look and he gave his head a jerk in my direction. “Come on over and sit down a minute, pal.”
He was dressed like a dandy – dark blue suit with gold pinstripes, wide-brimmed black fedora, gold and black striped necktie – but he had the face and build of a street soldier in Capone’s old mob or the Purple Gang in its heyday. The bulge under his left arm enhanced the effect. I picked up my mug and walked over to his table.
He sized me up at close range for ten or fifteen seconds. “Stranger in town, huh?”
“Just passing through.”
“Down on your luck, right?”
“It shows, does it?”
“To someone who knows people like I do, yeah it shows.”
“So what do you want to do, rub it in?”
“Do I look like that kind of guy?” He did, but I kept the thought to myself. “No, I was thinking of maybe offering you a job.”
“What kind of job?”
“Does it matter?”
“Not much, but sometimes I’m fussy.”
“Pays to be that way. This is just routine. Collect a little money from a few people that owe me, an odd job here and there, that’s all.”
“So what happened to your last enforcer?”
“He had a little accident.”
“You mean somebody killed him.”
“If you want to put it like that.”
“What’s the pay?”
“Hundred a week. Maybe a little bonus now and then. Interested?”
“Maybe. When’s my first payday?”
“How about right now with a little extra thrown in. What do they call it, a signing bonus?”
He took a fat wallet from his pocket and laid four fifties on the table. I had myself a job.

Not everybody's cup of tea, but the sort of thing popular with noir fanciers or those who enjoy hardboiled private eye stories.
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Subject: Re: 1st and 3rd Person Tue May 27, 2008 5:25 pm

Excellent. Right to the point. I like that!
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Subject: Re: 1st and 3rd Person Tue May 27, 2008 7:16 pm

Wow, Dick... again, you impress me!!!! You hit exactly what I thought Stephen King was saying!!!! Only you explained it better than he did. Now I am not confused, I don't think, anymore.

I thoroughly agree with you about what is right for one person is not for another. Everyone has a different style. I was reading his book to get some insight into things I didn't know or hadn't thought about. You put things into clarification for me. Thank you soooo much!!!!

I just love the people on this forum!!!!
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Subject: Re: 1st and 3rd Person Wed May 28, 2008 12:30 pm

Excellent example Dick. Sue I think you may have saved yourself a trip to the library, at least for today!

And Abe, I love this:

Subject: Re: 1st and 3rd Person Wed May 28, 2008 1:45 pm

Good example, Dick. Otherwise, "said" works pretty well. Using the word "stated" in fiction sounds odd since that's more of a news story tag. It's hard to see dialogue examples out of context with what's around them, for what's around them helps determine that the tag (if any) will be.

Malcolm
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Subject: Re: 1st and 3rd Person Thu May 29, 2008 4:46 pm

Subject: Re: 1st and 3rd Person Thu May 29, 2008 7:48 pm

Well, I just re-read Stephen King's, On Writing. I realize I mis-read sections of the book. In my memory I combined two different sections of the book which were not to be combined: adverbs and 1st/3rd person. I also realize I was on track until I read his book and confused myself.

Thanks for all the help! It was not a waste of time or exercise as it made my mind clearer about the need for me to slow down when I read.
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Subject: Re: 1st and 3rd Person Fri May 30, 2008 7:38 am

Subject: Re: 1st and 3rd Person Fri May 30, 2008 12:58 pm

Yeah, Brew, that 47 word novel just might become a best seller in this age of short attention spans.

Reminds me of a true story. I once wrote a story of about 6,100 words and the limit was 6000. I knocked out all the unnecessary words and ended up with something just under 5,000. In rejecting it, the editor said it was a tad too terse. Sometimes you can't win. pale

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