To plot or not to plot?

Admin Joined : 11 Jan 2008 Posts : 1780 Location : UK

We will just have to agree to disagree. Writing really is not that much different, there are always exceptions but the majority of full-time authors, who make a good living without making it onto any bestsellers' lists, have honed their writing to suit a particular market and have the skills to adapt their writing if the market shrinks and they are forced to appeal to a new group of readers.

Members of professional orchestras are skilled musicians but they make a fraction of the amount earned by rock stars. Similarly, many journalists are skilled writers and often become ghost writers to the rich and famous because they can't write a bestselling novel.
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Shelagh Watkins
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Subject: Re: To plot or not to plot? Sun May 11, 2008 2:01 pm

That is soooo true.

Some people write with all the precision and beauty of Mozart.
While others write with all the fun and bubblegum of The Monkees.

Both have an audience.
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Subject: Re: To plot or not to plot? Sun May 11, 2008 3:39 pm

Wow! What a thread!!!!

I have read books by authors who do it the 'right way' and by authors who do it the 'wrong way' and have enjoyed 'both ways!'

I have learned that writing and publishing has changed so much since I learned 'how to write' in English and Journalism class. I guess what it basically comes down to is what works for you, what works for your readers, and if YOU feel you are successful at what you do and end up putting out into the public readership.

Because of the 'set' way of doing things I have been put off writing the fiction I know is in me, and I also know I am suppose to write. I guess I shall just sit down and "Do It" and not worry about what others thing about how I do it or how I get there.

After saying that, I have a question. So the majority of people in this forum consider there is a right way and a wrong way in writing fiction? Non-fiction? Anything?

sunny

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Subject: Re: To plot or not to plot? Sun May 11, 2008 3:57 pm

Sue I tend to think it's like cooking chilli (oops, food analogy again, but please bear with me). The basic components are the same, but every cook does it their own way; either the way their family does it, or the way a cookbook explained it to them.

Some like it hot, some don't. Some add cumin, some don't. Some add a variety of beans, some just one or two. But the essence comes from the quality of the tomatoes, chilli peppers, meat (or not) and the amount of time it spends simmering. And whether or not you add chocolate of course.

In the end, it's a tasty, rich and soul satisfying chili, but every one of them is unique in some way. And tomorrow it tastes even better. Just like a good piece of writing; same, yet different.

And in case you've read this far and are wondering, I have put chocolate in chilli, and it's amazing.

:pirat:
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Pam Robertson

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Subject: Re: To plot or not to plot? Sun May 11, 2008 4:28 pm

Okay. How much chocolate and what kind?

Also thank you for the input. It has helped me more than the entire thread put together!!!!
sunny

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Subject: Re: To plot or not to plot? Sun May 11, 2008 4:35 pm

It's apples and oranges. There is no equivalent to the hours a violinist or ballerina spends burning in muscle memory (doing repeitive things that aren't even dancing or playing, often)

There is no equivalent to sitting in a gallery copying masters in order to get down the gesture of a brush stroke.

But whatever.

What's worse than the concept that hard work won't compensate for the lack of talent is that one of the most important ingredients in success in writing is LUCK.

If you write what you like and do a decent job of it, it might be something eveybody is dying to read, like the Da Vinci code or Bridges of Madison Avenue.

Or it might be something people can see is well written, but nobody is really interested in reading it, or enjoy your style.

If luck isn't a factor, then you enter the realm of writing to please popular taste.
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shelagh · Admin Joined : 11 Jan 2008 Posts : 1780 Location : UK

I used to teach art and I wouldn't recommend copying old masters, although I know that students do spend time in galleries doing just that. Rembrandt used to teach his pupils the skills he'd acquired, but he didn't do them any favours. Paintings by some of his pupils have been attributed to Rembrandt and then, when found not to be the work of the great master, considered to be of little monetary value.

Doing something as well as someone else isn't valued in writing any more than in any other profession.

For some reason, you want to believe that writers can succeed without having to go through the stages of learning, developing, honing and perfecting. That's fine. You can think that way. It just doesn't work for me. Maybe I'm not good enough and no amount of hard work will make me good enough.

I don't want to write like Dan Brown. The film of his book made a fortune and yet it is one of the worst films I've ever seen.

I posted this on librarything:

Subject: Re: To plot or not to plot? Sun May 11, 2008 5:48 pm

I guess the cooking analogy is a good one.

You could have an excellent French chef, who has studied food at the best culinary schools and perfected a dish. The food critics give this chef five stars and claim it is the most excellent food they've ever tasted.

Then some guy comes in who just doesn't get fine cuisine, tastes the dish and pushes it away and says it is the worst thing he's ever tasted.

Then you have this other guy who has been underfoot in his mother's kitchen since he was five. And he started helping with the family cooking since he was ten, and just loves fiddling around in the kitchen.

He loves cooking so much, that he endures the teasing from his classmates and takes the Home Economics class in high school, just so he can cook. Then he takes a business class and decides to open his own diner and does his own cooking.

That same guy who hated the fancy cuisine, goes into this diner and orders the special and declares it is the best meal he's ever had.

Who is the better cook?
The guy who studied at the best culinary school? The guy who never went to any cooking school?
It doesn't matter.

People have different tastes in books, music, food, and art.

The only right way to write is to sit down at your keyboard and begin punching.

Well, that is the only way that has worked for me so far.
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~ JoElle Martín ~

http://www.dreamersforest.com

Subject: Re: To plot or not to plot? Sun May 11, 2008 6:30 pm

There are many good writers around – some are on this forum. It is interesting to note that until a writer’s work is accepted by a publisher and given recognition, he/she is remains a nobody – a struggling writer. Fortunately, they get encouragement from fellow authors – colleagues, is you will, who are also struggling to have their work recognized. And, with lots of faith in themselves and persistence, it can happen.
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Subject: Re: To plot or not to plot? Sun May 11, 2008 6:47 pm

I do not beleive in luck. I beleive in work, and that we create our own "luck" by the actions that we take. As such being "lucky" won't make me a great writer, but I will acheive great writer status as a result of hard work.

The secret to the chili is (depending on the size of your pot and taste) is to melt a 1-2 ounce piece of dark chocolate towards the end of cooking. It provides a very nice undertone. I'll pull a copy of the recipe out and stick it another thread just in case you want to try it out Sue.
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Pam Robertson

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Subject: Re: To plot or not to plot? Sun May 11, 2008 7:39 pm

For some reason, you want to believe that writers can succeed without having to go through the stages of learning, developing, honing and perfecting.

That's because the can. And do.

I'd say what people WANT to beleive is that no matter what their level of ability or talent, if they just work harder, or read the right book, or go to the proper seminar, or learn the right code words, they will be able to excell and sell their work.

And it just isn't true. Sorry, but it just isn't true. It's what feeds all the parasite industry that feeds off writing hopes and dreams. Similar to modeling....same thing: you can go to all the schools and photographers and stylists and fee-agents in the world, but if you don't have the looks and figure and poise to model, you aren't going to learn it.

This is really the answer to my comments elsewhere about all the exploiters of writers: people figure out what they have to do to be musicians or ballerinas or whatever. Or they figure out that it doesn' matter what they do, they aren't going to play in the NBA because they're only 5'6".

But writing, without any objective yardsticks or measurable technique, can keep holding out that promise forever: just find that magic key and you'll be a star.
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Subject: Re: To plot or not to plot? Sun May 11, 2008 7:46 pm

You can believe in luck or not, but the chances of your tastes matching up to broad popular appeal is a matter of luck, and no two ways about it.

Since the cooking analogy is there: you can work for years developing a recipe for something you really like. But that doesn't mean it will be widely liked.

In fact, there's a case in point in that here. There's a great ice cream store on the island, with insanely addictive flavors. One flavor is cinnamon. The only one I don't like. Most people don't. Those who like it, like it a lot, but they are in th minority.

No amount of improving the recipe or marketing is going to change that. Nothing wrong with cinammon, it's just not lucky enough to be popular.

What I am saying here is not, if you suck, give it up. Nor is it, don't try your best.

What I'm saying is, the majority of writers are not going to be widely popular. Most, in fact, are not even going to satisfy wide enough tastes to get publishing contracts.
But there might be people out there who like their work. And the better they figure out how to do it, the more strongly people will like it.

So you find your niche, and your level, and work it.

There is absolutely nothing I can do to make more people interested in Mexican slang. There is no amount of improving the book or cool market technique that will change that.

What I try to do is make sure everybody in that niche hears about it, and that I don't screw up the chances they will buy the book.
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Subject: Re: To plot or not to plot? Sun May 11, 2008 10:09 pm

Thanks, Pam, I will keep an eye out for it.

I don't believe in luck either. I won't say why here as I don't want to get bashed.
sunny

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Subject: Re: To plot or not to plot? Sun May 11, 2008 11:37 pm

Sorry anyone would think of this as bashing.

And I'm really regretful to see that people are mis-interpreting what I'm saying here.

I would suggest that aspirant writers think it over. If you have 20 "How To Wrote Books" on your shelf and haven't sold anything yet, maybe that's not the approach that is going to work.

Maybe what you need to do is what all of us do, to some extent, in life itself: find out where we fit in and work well, and build ourself a home there. Is writing really that much different from real life?

I don't think so. The very lack of practical technique and trainability that makes it so different from the other arts is exactly what makes it close to life itself. In essence, what successful writers to is tell about life in a voice that sounds right to the readers or listeners.
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Subject: Re: To plot or not to plot? Mon May 12, 2008 3:16 am

According to what I have heard on this forum I shouldn't be doing as well as I am. I found a cover designer, had a logo done and got an ISBN number after starting a publishing company, doing at least 5 book signings a month, selling from my website as well as from amazon.com and B&N, have sold over 200 books, all on my own, and not one penny has come from my limited income. For someone who knew nothing and had nothing, I think I have come a long way baby. And again, I don't believe in luck.
sunny

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